To probe, or not to probe. Temp/speed?

[fishhuntadventure]

I have been reading probe comments with interest the last few months. I don't have one and I am not sure how necessary these are. Sure, they can improve one's catch rate, but is this true all the time? I read a post this AM regarding not catching fish due to a broken probe and I was thinking, "really? Is fishing that tough without a probe?"

In context, my GPS died the end of April and I just recently was able to do what was needed to get the warranty replacement. Haven't been out serious fishing with it yet, however. But as with the dead probe story I realized how much I depended on it and it freaked me out as I was thinking, "what would happen if my sonar died too!"

Q: Is the probe as critical as sonar???

Is knowing the exact speed at the ball critical when you can see the downrigger cable nearly vertical going south and then swinging WAY back when you turn around. You just know compared to water currents that at the ball you are way past your 2.5mph SOG (gps) when you are headed north.

Mostly, I have been curious about my anecdotal sense of speed and currents at the ball as a result. My personal best salmon was caught in July relatively high up on a Lite Bite. From the crazy action at the rod tip for the previous 3/4 mile before the fish hit I think I was fishing a "seam" of current down about 25-30'. I couldn't see it on sonar but I *could* see a thermocline at 55' or so. I didn't check the temp down there.

How important is the probe? I have a temp sender that I can clip to the cannonball that I can run to 70' max as that is the length of the sender cable. While I am sure a speed/temp probe can help, I have caught fish and I don't have one!

So for those running subtrolls or whatever- what do you think? Is the probe just an amazing, helpful tool? Or is it so important it is like day and night?

Thank you and looking forward to the discussion

[raz]

I don't have a probe either, but have committed towards getting one.
Last year and this year it seems I have struggled once the fish get deep, and their preferred temps can be found at varying depths depending on location, weather conditions, and currents, especially the invisible seiche.
As for using a probe to determine speed at the ball, I feel that too is VERY important given the currents that exist in this lake, and the structures those currents need to rise over, fall over, or go around.
While fishing I often wonder what my spoon is doing down there. I believe a probe will help me better understand what my spoon is doing and boost my "deep water" confidence.
One of my fishing partners convinced me last year not to buy one, and I didn't. I have since decided that a probe is a tool I need to have and learn how to use. It certainly can't hut.
I'll be installing one before the leapers get very deep next spring!

[Digitroll Fishing]

I am sure there was some doubting thomases when the lite bite slide diver came out.

If your a captain that lives on the water almost every day for 30 years on the inland sea where the temps. tend to be much more stable than the broad lake do you need a probe? Maybe not.

However, figuring out the hit speed at the ball and direction trolled any given day is valuable data in real time as it changes day by day.

Capt. Dan Keating on Lake Michigan isn't really a huge fan of electronic gadgets. However, the speed and temp at the ball will be the last thing he will give up on his boat when searching the waters of Lake Michigan for salmon any time on his charter boat. Take away his GPS and his Sonar first.

After a blow or not having been on the water for days or weeks it's a valuable tool for finding the productive colder water in the key 45-60 feet zone for fishing landlocks. After the LCI till December 1st targeting the 45-60 foot depths near the temp. break is critical fishing below the stockies with a temp. probe.

Like any new toy or tool it's how you integrate it and use it with all the data to put together a program to catch fish on a consistent basis. Will fish jump in the boat? No. But, it will help you hunt for water that will hold the fish your looking for.

It's a durable good type purchase. The return on investment over 20 years is pennies on the dollar averaging all those fishing trips. I owned my $600 Ray Marine Command control purchased in 1987 for 26 seasons with no issues. After damaging my trailer in a brush with the curb and the tire busted off the transducer for the Ray Marine unit a year ago I had to replace it with the state of the art X-4 Fish Hawk. I recently had to replace the batteries after 150 hours and over a year of use. Takes 4 AA's. Love it!

[fishingmachine]

temp may be more important than speed,but why use just one when you can have both? I have a Moor sub-troll 900 but if I had to buy a new one I would get the x-4,however ,I talked to a couple of charter captains on L O and they said the Moor was the one,,,,,so ,take your pick.My Moor lasted 10 years before I finally had to send the display in and get it repaired,,,cost $100,well worth it

[Digitroll Fishing]

Some data on why speed is important at the ball with currents:

Courtesy of "The Troutman" Capt. John circa 2005:

Slept in, it was nice. Simply updating...I'm sure you've heard, the typical post derby surge in staging ledge action is underway. Basically, it's "pick your water "...50 to 110 fow. I've been parked around 80 to 105 fow...early and late the matures are shooting and milling 40 to 70 down...most of the time hitting 4-10 ft. back for me on Troutman...a mixture of Northern King Mags in "O" Glow Frog [which is a flo green/flo chartreuse yellow top with diagonal glo/green prism tape diagonal with a completely taped glo pearl cup side] mixed in with the "O" Frogs are Opti - Dodgers with various glo pattern G-Flys. The dipsey's are rigged with same lures and let out at a ratio of 2 1/2 ft. out to each ft. down with proper speed to swing these "heavy" dodgers and put a tight wiggle on the NK mags. The read on the current is the trick and if you are having trouble getting hits right now it's the current read. Last night it seemed that some boats were "dead" near me when rods were poppin' like mad...the same rip is back that ran passed the point before the rough weather set in last week...troll east, a little north east, then swerve south east keeping group speed at 2.0 to 2.3 kts over the ground. Pay attention as any breeze, loss of rpm or throttle change this westward flow will kill boat momentum and lures will stall out. No bags no plates, and let 'er rip going east These inquisitive milling sharks will rip...save #'s of tight pods of fish and stay on 'em, don't wander around. Stay over shark pods they turn on and off be on 'em when they go nuts! West troll see that a slow idle your ground speed runs up to 2.8 to 3.0 + even with west breeze hitting you head on...the current of top water is wisking you along over the deeper water, slow down, bag it, zig-zag north west, then south west, get speed down to low to mid 2.4 to 2.0. I use a Moor Subtrol 900, then cannonball speed temp unit shows you the "hit" speed each way. This unit is the best way to read current and make adjustments and nail fish in tough current/wind conditions. In last three days the Rick Pier /Betty Pier party from New Jersey fish morning and evening trips and averaged a mature an hour...breaking it down, they fished 24 hours total and boated 23 for 30 kings on the line. Rick landed a beefy 26 lber on his Lamniglas 8' three piece graphite salmon "pack" rod with his left handed counter reel. Betty Pier, at 91 years old, boated kings to 24 lbs...quite possibly the eldest angler to land a Point Breeze king this and many other years... See ya, Troutman !!

[fishhuntadventure]

temp may be more important than speed,but why use just one when you can have both? I have a Moor sub-troll 900 but if I had to buy a new one I would get the x-4,however ,I talked to a couple of charter captains on L O and they said the Moor was the one,,,,,so ,take your pick.My Moor lasted 10 years before I finally had to send the display in and get it repaired,,,cost $100,well worth it

I heard Big Chief Honcho from Moor speak at a fishing tackle dealer show a couple of years ago. Fairly well convinced I like the Moor best- not that the FishHawk stuff is bad. The moor has a coupla things well thought out.

digitroll's response(s) made me look up a price on the thing. Moor is only $400! That is not as bad as I imagined.

[MarknFish (Mark)]

Had a day on the broad lake two summers ago in a hard north wind where my brother, his two boys and I put a whupping on the salmon. Trouble was we could only get fish going south with the waves, with GPS speeds around 3.3. We thought they wanted fast lures so we tried up to 4+ into the wind and barley crawling to see if we could replicate the opposite troll. We never did figure it out and it was at the point where we wanted to troll south, pull everything in and cruise up to repeat. That day convinced me to get the X4 so I could see what was happening down below.

I got caught up in someone's old rigger cables or a mooring line on Lake Willoughby this summer and lost the probe, 66 down over 90+ FOW, with 3 other riggers set deeper! I felt like my best friend was gone. My wife didn't even hesitate in saying I should replace it immediately.

[fishhuntadventure]

...That day convinced me to get the X4 so I could see what was happening down below....got caught up in someone's old rigger cables or a mooring line on Lake Willoughby this summer and lost the probe, 66 down over 90+ FOW, with 3 other riggers set deeper! I felt like my best friend was gone. My wife didn't even hesitate in saying I should replace it immediately.

RE: Cables- I got hung up earlier this summer off the ball grabber. Sonar varied 25-40' deeper water than my cannonballs were running. Ball was solidly hung, and the slide diver on the other side pulled up someone's old downrigger cable and I almost got my ball back with the crusty cable. It did let the line release from the Chamberlain so at least I got the lure back.

On speeds- 2.4 - 2.7 GPS seem to be good numbers this year. Surface speed of course. I hear that is what probe-runners aim for (2.4+/-) but what about temps?

Moor's site lists 62F as optimum for "Atlantic Salmon" but then further down lists "landlocked salmon" at 45- 55F. The bomb pop post mentions 55. I have seen other posts on Champlain salmon mention "magic numbers" of 52, 56, 62. Tackle shop "seminars" and some IRL ramp convos have me convinced anything from 56- 62 is perfect. And then at a tackle show I asked about 10 great lakes captains what they thought about atlantics most active/feeding temp and I 56 mostly with several suggesting atlantics are aggressive "right into the low 60s." And digitroll- you seem to be suggesting targeting temperature at a given depth, and not just targeting a specific depth. All good info!

Q: So what do Champlain regulars think about temps? What is the trolling target for you?

Q2: What about spawning? Walleyes, bass, etc. get a lot of conversations going about their spawning being triggered by temps. One could assume that atlantics have a temp trigger as well. But I haven't read or heard any definitive fishermen's answers. Any confident thoughts?

[pierre]

for me it a new probe no questions asked look for my fishing reports and you will understand of course my spoons helped and were certainly a factor .

pierre

[Crazy Ivan]

I will only say this once........ I have owned a Fish Hawk since 1988........... never fish without it.......

[fishhuntadventure]

...That day convinced me to get the X4 so I could see what was happening down below....got caught up in someone's old rigger cables or a mooring line on Lake Willoughby this summer and lost the probe, 66 down over 90+ FOW, with 3 other riggers set deeper! I felt like my best friend was gone. My wife didn't even hesitate in saying I should replace it immediately.

On speeds- 2.4 - 2.7 GPS seem to be good numbers this year. Surface speed of course. I hear that is what probe-runners aim for (2.4+/-) but what about temps?

Moor's site lists 62F as optimum for "Atlantic Salmon" but then further down lists "landlocked salmon" at 45- 55F. The bomb pop post mentions 55. I have seen other posts on Champlain salmon mention "magic numbers" of 52, 56, 62. Tackle shop "seminars" and some IRL ramp convos have me convinced anything from 56- 62 is perfect. And then at a tackle show I asked about 10 great lakes captains what they thought about atlantics most active/feeding temp and I 56 mostly with several suggesting atlantics are aggressive "right into the low 60s." And digitroll- you seem to be suggesting targeting temperature at a given depth, and not just targeting a specific depth. All good info!

Q: So what do Champlain regulars think about temps? What is the trolling target for you?

Q2: What about spawning? Walleyes, bass, etc. get a lot of conversations going about their spawning being triggered by temps. One could assume that atlantics have a temp trigger as well. But I haven't read or heard any definitive fishermen's answers. Any confident thoughts?

Still looking for temperature opinions.

In the meantime, today I am thinking fishing as I go through my boring work day, and speed is on my mind. I have mostly settled in to 2.4 to 2.7 this year (SOG) but that's surface speed. What about 'you' out there?

Q-"A" Do you have a probe?
Q- "B" If you don't - what SOG did you target this year?
Q- "3" If you do have probe: What downspeed has your starting/go-to speed been?

[Digitroll Fishing]

Every day is different. Experiment with different speeds / angles / currents and let the fish tell you what speed they want on any given day.

As "troutman" says use the combo of downspeed at probe and SOG and determine hit speed with your probe on any given direction.

Or add your slide divers as a third variable or cable angles.

It's just tools in the tool box.

[popster]

I wouldn't want to fish without a remote temp sensing device of some kind, especially this time of year. I just returned from 5 days fishing in the Converse/Essex area. The surface temps were steady at 58-60F and only varied 3 degrees to 100'. There was then a break of 6 degrees in a matter of only a few feet. Raising or lowering the probe (X4) only a few ft would make a difference of 48F or 53F. Crazy stuff. I also dropped a Fish Hawk TD down to confirm the readings of the probe.
As far as SOG..... I don't care. It doesn't matter what the surface speed is as long as the probe is kept in whatever speed zone is best for the lures. I saw currents as strong as 1.8mph at various depths. At one point, I noticed my probe surface speed (different than SOG) was 4.0 to make 2.2 at the probe. Worth noting.....The currents changed daily as did the winds.
It's just another valuable tool in the adventure.
Note... highlights of the week were several Salmon (no lunkers), lots of shakers and barely-legals & a very nice Steelhead. White Perch at 90' several times.

[Crazy Ivan]

In my Boat.... I have a probe....
Lure speed and lure Presentation is 40% of my fishing plan, Location 40%....... The rest, temp included make up the other 20%.
If you want 50 plus fish days on a regular basis...... Buy a probe. If a few fish here and there are fine then dont.... The prime hunting grounds from November to March are from Sloop Island to Barber Point........ lots of under water stuff going on..... surface wind and waves and under water currens everwhere.... The top water game is over for now.......
SPEED AT THE LURE>>>SPEED AT THE LURE>>> SPEED AT THE LURE>>>!
Todd

[fishingmachine]

I think speed should be determined by what lure(s) you are pulling,I always watch the spoon in the water at the surface to see what speed to run it at and then use that speed by using my probe at whatever depth I am fishing, honeybees can be run much slower than needlefish (for example) , I try to get my spoons to wobble back and forth with a flip in there once and a while.