POSTED WATER

[lungelarry]

We found (POSTED no hunting ,fishing ) signs 100 ft . from shore on the Vermont side of Champlain......Is this legal??? There was a super fancy duckblind in the spot, could this be a game ass,.???

[fishingmachine]

I don't think this is legal...wardens? Lungelarry,,,you should do one of two things....you should pull the signs out with your boat or call the game warden and have him do it

[cowboy]

they cannot post the water.tie your boat off to the sign and start fishing.

[Matt]

Unless it was from authorities, I don't think its legal for someone to post that...call and find out!

[Salmoneye]

Everything I can find points to 95.5' above mean sea level as the limit of what and where a landowner can post to...They may 'technically' own and pay taxes on 'land' set to the historic low water mark of 92' (or thereabouts), but as far as I understand, the 'Public Waters' are to 95,5'...

There is a long thread in the archives of the other site...

Still willing to be proven wrong, but so far no one can show me otherwise...

If those signs are in more than a foot of water at the moment, then they are suspect (at least in my mind)...

Lake is at 96.6 feet...

[tiny]

Everything I can find points to 95.5' above mean sea level as the limit of what and where a landowner can post to...They may 'technically' own and pay taxes on 'land' set to the historic low water mark of 92' (or thereabouts), but as far as I understand, the 'Public Waters' are to 95,5'...

There is a long thread in the archives of the other site...

Still willing to be proven wrong, but so far no one can show me otherwise...

If those signs are in more than a foot of water at the moment, then they are suspect (at least in my mind)...

Lake is at 96.6 feet...

Salmoneye is definitely right - A Champlain shoreline property boundary only extends to the mean low water mark (95.5). I think most other bodies of water in the state use the current water level as the boundary. It definitely might be illegal for them to post the water and restrict access.

[Thorny]

Unless it's a state preserve

[Salmoneye]

Salmoneye is definitely right - A Champlain shoreline property boundary only extends to the mean low water mark (95.5). I think most other bodies of water in the state use the current water level as the boundary. It definitely might be illegal for them to post the water and restrict access.

I agree, but not with the "mean low water mark"...The State controls all waters from the "Mean Water Level", or "Normal Mean Water Mark" seaward...On Champlain that is set at 95.5' above mean sea level:

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/dec/rules/pdf/waterlvl.pdf

Further, this is the only place codified that I can find referring to public waters

http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/ful ... tion=00401

Lakes and ponds which are public waters of Vermont and the lands lying thereunder are a public trust, and it is the policy of the state that these waters and lands shall be managed to serve the public good, as defined by section 405 of this title, to the extent authorized by statute. For the purposes of this chapter, the exercise of this management shall be limited to encroachments subject to section 403 of this title. The management of these waters and lands shall be exercised by the department of environmental conservation in accordance with this chapter and the rules of the board. For the purposes of this chapter, jurisdiction of the department shall be construed as extending to all lakes and ponds which are public waters and the lands lying thereunder, which lie beyond the shoreline or shorelines delineated by the mean water level of any lake or pond which is a public water of the state, as such mean water level is determined by the board. For the purposes of this chapter, jurisdiction shall include encroachments of docks and piers on the boatable tributaries of Lake Champlain and Lake Memphremagog upstream to the first barrier to navigation, and encroachments of docks and piers on the Connecticut River impoundments and boatable tributaries of such impounds upstream to the first barrier to navigation. No provision of this chapter shall be construed to permit trespass on private lands without the permission of the owner.

As I have said all along, if someone can correct my interpretations and show me where they get their info, I am more than willing to be educated...

Thorny is also correct...The 'State' can post waters that private citizens can not...

[Salmoneye]

I may need to correct myself:

http://vt.findacase.com/research/wfrmDo ... .VT.htm/qx

VT Supreme court case from 1967 that I can not find the entire ruling from (without paying)...

Mentions 94.32'...

I'll keep looking tomorrow or the next day, as this is a pet issue with me...

[tiny]

Salmoneye is definitely right - A Champlain shoreline property boundary only extends to the mean low water mark (95.5). I think most other bodies of water in the state use the current water level as the boundary. It definitely might be illegal for them to post the water and restrict access.

I agree, but not with the "mean low water mark"...The State controls all waters from the "Mean Water Level", or "Normal Mean Water Mark" seaward...On Champlain that is set at 95.5' above mean sea level:

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/dec/rules/pdf/waterlvl.pdf

Further, this is the only place codified that I can find referring to public waters

http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/ful ... tion=00401

Lakes and ponds which are public waters of Vermont and the lands lying thereunder are a public trust, and it is the policy of the state that these waters and lands shall be managed to serve the public good, as defined by section 405 of this title, to the extent authorized by statute. For the purposes of this chapter, the exercise of this management shall be limited to encroachments subject to section 403 of this title. The management of these waters and lands shall be exercised by the department of environmental conservation in accordance with this chapter and the rules of the board. For the purposes of this chapter, jurisdiction of the department shall be construed as extending to all lakes and ponds which are public waters and the lands lying thereunder, which lie beyond the shoreline or shorelines delineated by the mean water level of any lake or pond which is a public water of the state, as such mean water level is determined by the board. For the purposes of this chapter, jurisdiction shall include encroachments of docks and piers on the boatable tributaries of Lake Champlain and Lake Memphremagog upstream to the first barrier to navigation, and encroachments of docks and piers on the Connecticut River impoundments and boatable tributaries of such impounds upstream to the first barrier to navigation. No provision of this chapter shall be construed to permit trespass on private lands without the permission of the owner.

As I have said all along, if someone can correct my interpretations and show me where they get their info, I am more than willing to be educated...

Thorny is also correct...The 'State' can post waters that private citizens can not...

Hey Salmoneye, thanks for the correction, big difference between mean low water and mean water level. I found this cool chart on the NOAA page and it also shows that 2011 had approximately 3 months of record high water http://www.erh.noaa.gov/btv/lake/2011level.php

[karl]

I'm a new waterfront property owner, but on the NY side (about 1000 yards from Vermont by water).

Any ideas of where my property rights end in the water?
Does NYS also adhere to a particular minimum depth AMSL to determine
a property owner's rights?

Or, can someone permanently anchor a houseboat five feet from my seawall, or tie-up to my future dock?

A related question: 12 ga. 00 buckshot, or 1-oz. slugs?

[Salmoneye]

I'm a new waterfront property owner, but on the NY side (about 1000 yards from Vermont by water).

Any ideas of where my property rights end in the water?
Does NYS also adhere to a particular minimum depth AMSL to determine
a property owner's rights?

Or, can someone permanently anchor a houseboat five feet from my seawall, or tie-up to my future dock?

A related question: 12 ga. 00 buckshot, or 1-oz. slugs?

No one can tie to your dock without your permission as that is 'private property' even though it may extend into public waters...Items like that are regulated by the Army Corp of Engineers, and it is my understanding that they can not extend into public waters more than 100' without 'approval'...The issue still remains where that 100' starts...

As for your seawall, it depends how deep the water is in front of it...Or at least it would here on the VT side, as our 'right' to water is in our state constitution...Same lake level as where it would start for a 100' dock...

I just don't know at this time...I still am balking at paying $5 to someone for a VT Supreme Court Decision...I am going to contact the States Attorney's Office and request a clarification, but it may be a while, as I have yet again gotten myself into a project that is keeping me from fishing...

[cowboy]

I know of a time when a lakeshore owner called gamewarden and complained about a man spearing northerns in front of his house.the warden told him if his feet were wet there was nothing he could do.