Tie direct or remove and replace front ring with DUO-LOCC #3

[tamiron]

In an earlier post I asked people to comment on how they tie on Honeybees. The best response was from SALTER, a forum member that I did not know at the time. So I asked him to try some combinations without having to change his own spoons. I wanted him to share the results, good or bad with the forum.


To Salter:
I sent you three number one honeybees and three MP6 honeybees. The three are broken down as follows:
1. Standard - the way I normally sell them.
2. No ring in the front, a #3 duo lock snap and the standard hook size a #1 Siwash.
3. No ring in the front, a #3 duo lock snap and the reduced hook size a #2 Siwash.

I also sent you the following hardware:
1. Three each loose #1 & #2 Siwash.
2. Eight #4 fine wire Worth stainless split rings. These can be used to replace the rings that were removed if you don’t like the action.

My goal is to see how the fish react to the missing ring in the head of the spoon, replaced by a duo-lock snap with the two different sized hooks. Whatever information you can discover will really be appreciated and can certainly be shared with the forum good or bad. In either case the spoons etc. are yours for the effort that you put in.

Thanks again,
Jim Martino.


Salter’s Response:

Hi Jim. I have just recently completed testing your lure samples. All testing was done at 2.5 mph s.o.g. which is where I have my best results. All attachments were tied direct. I found that regardless of spoon type and hook size there was very little difference in action with attachment methods. (Welded Ring vs. Duo-Lock Snap).

The very noticeable difference in action was the hook size. The standard small honeybee that does a consistent thump side to side with an occasional flip with the siwash #1 goes into overdrive with the #2 siwash. The thump is more pronounced, and the occasional flip remains the same. I like it! With the MP6 the side to side action is more pronounced with the #2 siwash as compared to the #1 siwash. While I feel the smaller hook on the MP6 definitely enhances its action, it was not as dramatic as on the standard small honeybee. For my fishing needs I feel the smaller hook would suffice, but for much larger fish (King Salmon), I am not sure the #2 would be strong enough. Just my thoughts.

I may be cutting the welded ring on some of my best working honeybees and installing #2 hooks with split rings. If I get a chance to try them I will send results. Thanks for offering me a chance to try some variations with honeybees. It can only make them better.

For those who do not tie direct, I would consider taking off the front ring the way Michigan Stinger does. You will probably be pleasantly surprised! / Jim

[Crazy Ivan]

Noooooooo..... Leave the ring in the front! They work great especially on the number 1 bees!

[tamiron]

Crazy Ivan:

For me ... I agree with you as I always tie direct.

But I was amazed to discover how much action was lost by affixing a Duo-Loc snap to the front ring at the same speed. Unless you crank it up, you lose a lot! For those who pull spoons and use a snap direct to the front hole, our BEE's will require more speed than the other spoons. It apparently has to do with friction and the two points, snap to ring, that causes the dampening action. Since I believe that Ivans have a front ring, we can run at the same speed. The smaller hook, #2 siwash that Ivans use, appears to favorably impact the BEE's too. But if a person is catching fish on a speedy shiner or Michigan stinger with treble hooks and snaps, I believe that the Bee's and the Ivans, combined into that pattern, will suffer and not perform to their best level.

It's all about tools and getting the most out of your equipment. /Jim

[Crazy Ivan]

Jim,
We need to talk about this more.... There are Alot of other thing going on with this... Leader with a swivel ect.... True speed at the ball and dept that the spoon was Used. Salmon eye had this all down Like clock work.

[tamiron]

Jim,
We need to talk about this more.... There are Alot of other thing going on with this... Leader with a swivel ect.... True speed at the ball and dept that the spoon was Used. Salmon eye had this all down Like clock work.

Todd, I will call you next week.

Salmoneye is and has been a great guy and one that I have enormous respect for. I truly wish that he would return to the sport. Good people are always sorely missed.

The problem is that his consistency came from the unique ability to repeat the success with HIS equipment. He is a genius within his environment. I would not recommend very much of the equipment he used. Others would have to be as intelligent as he is to use it.

From my personal stand point, I could not share his fondness for such heavy line. Nor would I recommend the snaps or snap swivels that he uses. His electronic gear is minimal. His boat is not big enough to use the new presentation techniques that have become available.

BUT

His talents include incredible attention to detail. His scientific knowledge and creativity introduced me to UV. I had no idea of UV before him.

He is a true fisherman with the talents that come from years upon years of success and failures. I believe his extraordinary in depth analysis of lure performance, speed at the surface, colors, color patterns, artistic interpretations and old time outdoor skill sets all allowed him to do what successful people used to do before the solution came into vogue to throw money at problems. I also throw money at problems, but it’s years and years of trial and error that have also defined the present day me!

I am not trying to over simplify this snaps subject … but I have to admit that I am personally offended by claims that some products have better action or results than BEEs by users of products without that front ring who set their patterns and speed to accommodate those spoons and then try to include BEEs in that pattern and conclude that BEEs don’t work!

[Hairbone]

I start my spread out with a mix of lure kinds and adjust accordingly. I am lucky if I get one day a week to fish and currents and wind direction are always changing. I have been running the snap with bee's and have tried the direct tie. I can say that I change direction and speeds constantly so I am always getting reactionary strikes as the lure action changes. With the snap you do need more speed if you are straight line trolling.

I have been very successful with the landlocks, and Champlain can make a hero out of a zero as far as salmon fishing as some days it is just plain easy. I have success on other lakes with the same tackle for salmon, browns, lakers and walleye so I must be doing ok using a snap When Jim speaks I tend to listen so I am going to try a few without the nose ring and a snap!

[tamiron]

When Jim speaks I tend to listen so I am going to try a few without the nose ring and a snap!

And

Believe me ... when all of you speak I listen very closely. You are all my eyes and my ears on the water. What you observe has a dramatic impact on what I will focus on next! Thanks to all for positive and negative comments! / Jim

[tamiron]

Noooooooo..... Leave the ring in the front! They work great especially on the number 1 bees!

Todd:

Without being in a boat I couldn't really answer my own question ... until now. Here is video proof and it may be true for spoons other than Honeybees!

http://www.tamiron.com/Articles.asp?ID=257


Tied DIRECT = (Remove ring ... Place Snap in front hole)

[Hairbone]

Great demo jim!

[No Pressure]

With this demo, do you have an in line swivel tied to a leader. I have always run an in line swivel and a swivel to the lure because of line twist. I will try tying direct soon, but I think I will leave the in line swivel to the leader. Thoughts?

[NHfishin4fun]

Great video jim! Like a NASCAR wind tunnel for lures!

I've always felt that multiple connections deaden lure action and this video really shows that. The best part though is that it's not about one method of rigging being better than another. Simply that, if you prefer a specific level of action from the bait, but conditons merit a different trolling speed than you would normally run, you can adjust for that to keep your action consistent based on how you connect. Great stuff and great food for thought!

[Bearcat]

Yes that is a great demonstration. I've had a lot of success with 'Bees. I always keep an inline bb swivel on the rod end of my leader and I like the cross locks at the lure because my 51 year old eyes mutiny every time I have to tie an improved clinch in a length of 8 or 10 lb floro . . . . but based on all this, I think it maybe bye bye time for all of my rings.

[tamiron]

With this demo, do you have an in line swivel tied to a leader. I have always run an in line swivel and a swivel to the lure because of line twist. I will try tying direct soon, but I think I will leave the in line swivel to the leader. Thoughts?

Absolutely agree! Try leaving the mono tag ends about 1" to 1 1/2" to catch debris from sliding down to spoon! /Jim

[tamiron]

Yes that is a great demonstration. I've had a lot of success with 'Bees. I always keep an inline bb swivel on the rod end of my leader and I like the cross locks at the lure because my 51 year old eyes mutiny every time I have to tie an improved clinch in a length of 8 or 10 lb floro . . . . but based on all this, I think it maybe bye bye time for all of my rings.

Please don't remove all rings from all lures. Try one of a size and type and check it against your favorite speed and the actions of your most productive lures. The reason for these videos is to maximize your presentation strategy. Remember, the greater the number of ideal working lures in the pattern, the more fish you will catch. But if you insist on mixing your spoons, make sure they all work in harmony. /Jim

[tamiron]

There are now videos on all six Honeybee sizes on our website.