Salmon fishery

[C-Hawk]

I am just wondering if there is anyone else on here as concerned about the direction our salmon fishery is heading as I am.
The last 3 years has been abobinal for salmon north of Burlington. Experts told me you need to try different water, they are there, just try different areas. Well Ok. Many caught fish below Burlington and everyone thought I was a Quack. Now , salmon fishing sucks Lakewide. Sure, occasional 4 or 5 pounders are caught, but it wasn't that long ago when I had multiple days of multiple fish over 4 pounds! WTF! No one can convince me to move around, try different spots, because I have and did. It is time to raise a stink unless we all want to be laker fishermen.
There are bright spots occasionally; Inland sea, Shelburne Bay, Bulwagga, Keeler's and rumors of fish way up north, but generally things suck. If we don't speak up soon, as a group, I think we'll never see the fantastic fishing we had 5 years ago.
I think it is time to put the effort into salmon, browns, and steelhead, that the Lakers received. And, with the burgeoning success there, totally reduce the laker stocking numbers and see what happens.

[C-Hawk]

Also, the returns at the Hatchery and the Winooski lift are very discouraging from what I hear.

[Wallyandre (Andre)]

Agree. Because of situation with the border last summer I fish in my province and we had a blast catching landlock.
I already book a camp for 3 weeks next summer; hopefully the COVID situation won't interfere with the travelling.
I do have my idea on the salmon situation; I think the water quality is not like it use to be and the situation with the low water is also a problem, recirculation of the water is very very slow so the salmon are staying in "old" water and those fish need nice, cool water with a lot of oxygen.

[C-Hawk]

Cricketts?

[Detritus]

I am just wondering if there is anyone else on here as concerned about the direction our salmon fishery is heading as I am.
The last 3 years has been abobinal for salmon north of Burlington. Experts told me you need to try different water, they are there, just try different areas. Well Ok. Many caught fish below Burlington and everyone thought I was a Quack. Now , salmon fishing sucks Lakewide. Sure, occasional 4 or 5 pounders are caught, but it wasn't that long ago when I had multiple days of multiple fish over 4 pounds! WTF! No one can convince me to move around, try different spots, because I have and did. It is time to raise a stink unless we all want to be laker fishermen.
There are bright spots occasionally; Inland sea, Shelburne Bay, Bulwagga, Keeler's and rumors of fish way up north, but generally things suck. If we don't speak up soon, as a group, I think we'll never see the fantastic fishing we had 5 years ago.

I follow you here.

I think it is time to put the effort into salmon, browns, and steelhead, that the Lakers received. And, with the burgeoning success there, totally reduce the laker stocking numbers and see what happens.

But this one made me wonder, because I'm not really up on the stocking program that the state is doing, or the science behind it. Just anecdotal stuff I've heard.

I found this web page,

https://anrweb.vt.gov/FWD/FW/FishStocki ... 1604368834

which has the 2020 stocking plan for fish species in Lake Champlain at the bottom.

Lakers, Browns, and Steelhead all had similar numbers proposed to be stocked, 50-60k for each species. Salmon was 145,000, close to triple the number of fish planned to be grown and introduced into the lake of those three.

Now, obviously there is more to the story, and I'm no fishery biologist. Maybe Lake trout have a much better survival rate, like the habitat more, aren't affected by the vitamin deficiencies that eating the alewives are causing, I don't know.

Is there evidence that the Laker program is the problem for the salmon? I mean, we all know those things are everywhere and are doing well, but, are they why the salmon are declining? Just as a suggestion pulled out of thin air here, but rather than get rid of the Laker program, I'd suggest saying Nobody could take any salmon at all for a few years and see what happens. We only took 2 this year, and wouldn't really notice at the dinner table if that number went to 0.

I hope nobody, especially you c-hawk, takes this the wrong way, I'm truly just looking to learn here. I'm also happy to help with providing feedback to Vermont Fish and Wildlife, when needed, as soon as I saw that lamprey program thing that someone suggested we go comment on, I did.

We already have the best fresh water fishery I've ever been on from Maine to Florida, 10 min away from my house. But, it has the potential to be so much better than it is. There's crazy stories of what this lake used to be before commercial fishing ruined it 100+ years ago, and over fishing more recently. I for one would be more than happy to contribute any way I could to get that fishery back. Even if you don't care about fishing, It is ridiculously beneficial for the local economy.

Jack

[C-Hawk]

Jack, I just know what I've seen over fishing Champlain for 30 years. In my opinion the Lakers all of a sudden are reproducing and the young fish are aggressive. They compete with salmon for sure, bit I don't think they are the entire problem. It is a a combination of everything, but certainly there are plenty of Lakers to go around. It wasn't always this way. I can remember a good day was a couple of Lakers, 25 years ago.
I understand the fishery is always in flux, but, I'm concerned it's being managed for pounds of fish, not quality. I want some research here. We have the best biologist for Lakers in the country, Ellen Mardson (sp), and it shows! Congratulations to her and UVM. Now let's look into the money fish.

[digitroll (ron)]

It's been in a steady decline the last 4 years during the April-July a busy time of year for angling for salmon for me. Last Fall for the first time the Frostbite bite for salmon was nearly non-existent with small lakers landed only. I am really hoping it bounces back this time around Nov-Dec for this Frostbite season. The only place I have seen shorts is in the Inland Sea this past summer. The stocked salmon seem to disappear in the main lake. The main lake central and north has been a laker haven the last 4 years and last Fall and this Fall they are in huge numbers in the south now where we fished for salmon traditionally. Forage is possibly going to take a big hit on all these lakers is the main concern. With the native (no fin clips) catches of them now are at least 1/3 of the daily catch adding to the population stocked. I have heard there was going to be a reshuffle of the stocking plans between NY and Vt a year ago. We can't seem to get away (troll away) from the lakers now to find salmon. We as others crank the speed up to nearly 3 mph and they still bite going thru schools of them. We have been in a down cycle the last 4 years overall attributed to the lack of small salmon seen on the main lake. Hopefully the NY and Vt Fish and Wildlife can dial back the lake trout stocking to try to contain the big population presently seen. On the flip side Lake Ontario is experiencing the biggest catch rate for salmon ever seen the last 3 years. I have heard of talk recently of folks wanting to sell their boats here in our area and others switching to fishing for bass and pike trolling in Outer Malletts Bay. The Inland Sea doesn't have lakers so that might be an option for now for folks trying to avoid the hungry small lakers! It feels like I am out there trolling for 5-6 hours per trip (sometimes multiple trips) for one salmon now whether it be a rare short or a legal salmon. Hoping for a change!

[tmcaul]

My results are like C-Hawk and others have reported:

Laker catch up significantly.
Salmon catch way down.
Just a couple salmon less than 20". This is the most significant change in the last couple of years.
Didn't pick up more than a couple of browns and rainbows (at most) and nothing with any size.

I trolled around 100 hours this season, mostly from Basin Harbor north to the Charlotte-Essex ferry lane on both sides of the lake. On calm days I fished north and south of that section of the lake.

[digitroll (ron)]

I did learn this am. that they will reduce the LT stocking.

[the_doctor]

trolling in Outer Malletts Bay

Don't bother with the Outer Bay please, there aren't any fish here of any kind

Seriously though, this is an important and interesting discussion, even if I am not the biggest salmon fisherman (hope to be some day).

The question is, what will we do about it?

We can speculate all day as to what's happening and what should be done, but someone needs to suggest an action. What's the first step that needs to happen? A survey or research study, maybe? A meeting of biologists?
Next, how to make that step happen? A petition? A campaign where we all contact F&W?

You see what I'm saying. How can we move beyond discussion to action?

[C-Hawk]

I think we need way more input here Doc, but, in my opinion , we have neglected the salmonids way too long. There have been lengthy lake trout studies, incredible amounts of money spent on sturgeon research, and the money US Fish and Wildlife spends on lamprey control is fantastic, why not pay similar attention to our queen of the lake?

[Boatless in BTV]

One thing I've always wanted to ask the biologists in charge is why they continue to stock browns and steelhead in Champlain. I know they say it's to "increase fishing opportunities", but what do those species offer that landlocks don't beside the small spring steelhead runs in places like Lewis Creek? Aren't the vast majority of browns and steelheads caught in the lake bycatch of people fishing for salmon? And clearly they're species that aren't native and have little to no chance of reproducing successfully here.

Maybe if those programs were ended there would be more resources to devote to salmon research and stocking, and maybe also to help restore other native species that are struggling like sturgeon, sauger and muskies.

[C-Hawk]

I think browns and steelhead numbers should be increased. Browns can be caught in shallower and warmer water than salmon, less finicky and better eating. Also, there is nothing like a steelhead coming from 70 down in about 3 seconds, and cartwheeling 8 feet in the air, especially an 8 pounder. Hold up on Lakers, stock equal numbers of all 3 . After all, it's put and take for salmon too. We will never see a sustainable population.

[digitroll (ron)]

More numbers / details:

356 hours breakdown on my engine for 2020:

30 hrs tubing with the kids / 37 hours Lake Ontario (one trip) / 167 hrs fishing Champlain for salmon / 3 hours break-in December 15th 2019 / 15 hrs Sabin/Mirror/Forest lakes in South Woodbury / Calais Vt

Steelhead was a bright spot this season for us landing maybe a dozen. We never landed a single brown this season. I am guessing somewhere between 50 and 75 legal salmon (I don't keep records). Shorts maybe 20 (Most in the Inland Sea). 5 Walleye.

I fished 17 hours on Dave's boat on Lake Ontario for trip #2 / I fished 2 trips on a friends 24 ft boat totaling 17 hours here total 184 hrs for Champlain / 1 trip for Walleye on Ken's Pontoon for 6 hours.

10 trips to Wagga / 1 trip to Keelers / 5 Inland Sea / 1 St. Albans Bay / 5 trips from Providence to Sister Islands / 1 trip to Ausable / 3 trips outer and inner Malletts Bay / 1 trip Shelburne Bay / 2 trips Shelburne Farms area / 1 trip Boquet / 12 trips to Converse / 6 trips Arnold Bay / 2 trips after dark for Walleye.

We averaged per trip 6 hours with 2 anglers and 4 rods. Looking at the rod hours metric 4 rod hours X 184 hours fished = 736 hours fished for 50-75 legal salmon for Champlain. No derbies fished.

We still have 4-6 weeks to finish the season for Frostbite depending on winds and snow/salt in December could finish early in most years. Hoping for another 6-8 trips and finishing with 400 hrs on my engine. I haven't fished this much in 30 years in a season.

[fishy1]

Steelhead and browns do reproduce in Champlain and there stronger And healthier than salmon . Browns can survive in any depth of water are spooky feisty to and great eating. Steelhead you catch one you better have your drag set right. Fish and wildlife just need to find a better time to stop stocking them cormorants are terrible on them. I witness it here every may in port henry