Finding salmon

tmcaul
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Finding salmon

Post by tmcaul »

My experience forces me to admit that I know almost nothing about where in Lake Champlain to find salmon. here's what I do or think I know:
  • salmon are in warm water in April May
    salmon prefer 55 degree water
I have read on the forum that some fishermen crisscross bait found at some (?) level in the water column. My experience after May, based mostly on trolling random routes (not over water deeper than 125 FoW) from the mouth of the Boquet River all the way to a little south of Arnold Bay, has been that when I catch salmon, I catch them randomly all over the place. Only once did my son and I catch a second salmon promptly after circling back to where we caught a first one. In this single instance, it was during the summer, I do not recall whether we spotted bait in that location.

Any wisdom and/or comments would be appreciated.
Tom
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dipike
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by dipike »

I think .. i am not better than you ..sorry but your post is very interesting...
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tamiron
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by tamiron »

OK.......... ANGELS TREAD WHERE WISE MEN FEAR TO GO!

I have been racking my brain for months to come up with a way to reverse the inevitable downward spiral that occurs on every fishing forum that I have been following. Once people have learned enough to satisfy their needs and how to catch fish they tend to join that group of successful anglers who don’t want to share that information at the risk of impairing their own success due to overcrowding, non-contributing by members, who seek information,but refused to give information in return (seagulls, vultures, carrion eaters, other despicable names).

I have seen this forum evolve from one of the finest information sources I’ve ever seen, to one of success by a select few, to one of little or no meaningful comments. Let me be perfectly clear that I have been accused of having “skin in the game”. An accusation that is absolutely true!

That’s right, for those that may not know, I’m a lure manufacturer that relies on shared information to be able to offer competitive products and stay in the game. Times are tougher on Lake Champlain, without a doubt, than they were just a few years ago. A lot is being done and a lot more needs to be done to return it to its glory days. But without the help of anglers working together with each other and with the V & T fish and game, it will take a lot longer.

I would like to hijack this thread! Then turn it into a long-lasting sharing of information thread. For those who do not want to share, don’t… As a matter fact don’t even visit the thread if you don’t want to. But I bet you will visit.

For those that do want to share I promise to add my almost 60 years of salmon and trout fishing knowledge to any questions that people may have, and would ask others to do the same.

If people begin to describe lures they are using, whether I make them or somebody else does, I will volunteer to go to my site or my competitors sites find a picture if I’m able to and post it. I will attempt to offer suggestions that have worked in the past in other places and will most likely add to your bag of tricks for Lake Champlain. The one thing I ask you not to share is the specific location of your success.

I will try to expand questions to give you ideas to enhance your own experiences and knowledge. The more you share the more people will learn better ways to do things. Anybody that tells you that you can “fish out a lake” by informed and proper catch and release, boxing your limit, sharing your successes, etc. has a very biased agenda that I am sure is not shared by the V & T fish and game. As matter of fact, the more successful anglers there are, the easier it is for the V & T to seek and receive greater financial support. I am looking for new and old anglers that are willing to work together. I will also find a way to encourage that with some of our products as well. I would also invite other manufacturers to do the same.

[center]Let’s renew this forum[/center][/color]

Anybody else interested???
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Reelax
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by Reelax »

I am with you Jim......

Thanks for the post. I try to help as much as I can, but I’m still learning too...

One thing I have learned is with Salmon CURRENT is key, weather it is a River mouth or an eddy in the lake caused by a point. You can many times find bait and salmon where there is the most current in a lake..

I hope others chime in and I will also.... try asking a question here, it will get answered!

Fish on!
Matt B
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C-Hawk
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by C-Hawk »

My posts would have been extremely boring this summer , so I have not posted. I can only speak for myself, but salmon fishing north of Burlington sucks. It has been this way for 3 years running, with this spring/summer season the absolute Pitts. I did not catch one (1), Broad Lake Salmon. This to me would have a detrimental effect on any forum, when half the Lake is terrible fishing. I know, people will say, go where the fish are. Trailer my boat, after pulling it out of the water, from So Hero to Chimney point. No, not after driving up from Mass 200 miles. It almost seems to me that the powers that be don't give a sweet shit about what is happening up north. They say we get plenty of returning fish at the Hatchery, and that is their barometer of fish populations. Even laker fishing is not that great at times. Inland Sea is a bright spot, and Mallets disappointed this year, after some fair fishing last year.
Hopefully things will pick up for me after a couple week break, since I am more mobile now.
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C-Hawk
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by C-Hawk »

As to your question Tom, I much prefer to pound known salmon hot spots, rather than the long troll. You may be missing the tight bait ball by a hundred yards and never know it. Start at a popular point as Matt says, making ever bigger loops until you find the bait. If nothing happens, pick up and move, don't do what Ron calls the "Death Troll" to get to a different spot.
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Wallyandre (Andre)
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by Wallyandre (Andre) »

C-Hawk wrote:My posts would have been extremely boring this summer , so I have not posted. I can only speak for myself, but salmon fishing north of Burlington sucks. It has been this way for 3 years running, with this spring/summer season the absolute Pitts. I did not catch one (1), Broad Lake Salmon. This to me would have a detrimental effect on any forum, when half the Lake is terrible fishing. I know, people will say, go where the fish are. Trailer my boat, after pulling it out of the water, from So Hero to Chimney point. No, not after driving up from Mass 200 miles. It almost seems to me that the powers that be don't give a sweet shit about what is happening up north. They say we get plenty of returning fish at the Hatchery, and that is their barometer of fish populations. Even laker fishing is not that great at times. Inland Sea is a bright spot, and Mallets disappointed this year, after some fair fishing last year.
Hopefully things will pick up for me after a couple week break, since I am more mobile now.
I feel youre pain! Many many hours to catch a salmon.Fishing North is definitely dead! If next year is the same you may see a trailer for sale in Port Kent
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ThreeBuoys
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by ThreeBuoys »

I 2nd Jeff's (FishHawk) comments..... Fishing on the Northern part of the Lake was the worst it has been in at least the last few years. I as well as Jeff are talking about the Broad Lake in particular.
At least last year Outer Malletts Bay produced from early June until mid July...this year nothing....
I had decent success in the Inland Sea this year, until the water gets so low that I can't get through.
I am even at the point where I might sell my boat lift and resort to traveling to the fish.... then I ask myself why I own a house on the lake if I'm going to do that!!!
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tamiron
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by tamiron »

Interesting start! :D.
Champlain is a sizeable body of water. Too big to take on all at once! This is probably the most important reason for sharing. We can teach each other a lot by avoiding what doesn’t work for others and does work for some.

Let’s start with the comment from Reelax.

Current can be affected by wind direction on any given day as well as the recent past. I believe it was POINTER who also pointed out the “bathtub effect” referred to as a SEICHE (a temporary disturbance or oscillation in the water level of a lake or partially enclosed body of water, especially one caused by changes in atmospheric pressure.)
https://www.google.com/search?q=seiche+ ... 9860594304

It can be also cause my bottom structure, or a River mouth or an eddy in the lake caused by a point. You can many times find bait and salmon where there is the most current in a lake. Not only will you find the zoo plankton that the forage fish follow, but the predators as well

It is one huge cycle that begins with the zoo plankton that is followed by the forage that is followed by the predators. I have talked to a number of fishery biologists from Vermont that say that Champlain is blessed to have one of the best zoo plankton populations in the world. I’m spending a lot of time on this concept because I really believe that, in spite of the tremendous fishery you have in the southern part of the lake, there is also zoo plankton and forage fish in all parts of the lake at different levels and different depths within the water column even in warmer and more weedy sections of the lake. So if we can find these forage fish, we ought to be able to find the trout and salmonoids. But if an area is too shallow, the water temperature might attract rainbows and brown trout but not Lakers or possibly salmon. If you have a steady blow from the south, it would be reasonable to assume that a lot of the zoo plankton in the South is pushed toward the north and with it the baitfish in the predators. But the lake is so big that if people are not cooperating and sharing information you may not find them. Fishing for the different salmonoids now becomes a paramount importance. Brown’s prefer (in Lake Ontario) a water temperature on the bottom of 55°. If you find bait suspended above a bottom with a 55° temperature there’s a pretty good chance you will find Brown’s at least in Lake Ontario. I would try that for Champlain. Steelheads also prefer the 55° temperature but much higher in the water, since eight not only feed on forage fish but insects as well. They are also significantly attracted to sound. Often times in Lake Ontario they will hit lures that are run in the prop wash. So will Atlantics. But in both cases temperature become significant. I know this is too much detail for most, but some of it should be jotted down in a notebook and kept track of what you notice about current conditions, any results that occur, including direction, lure colors, speed.
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tamiron
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by tamiron »

Before we go any further, you don’t need any trolling equipment or boat or much sophistication to catch trout and salmon at specific times under specific conditions like casting from shore in colder weather.

But if you want to be able to go out and troll and pick the times you fish than you better be resigned to begin investing in equipment that will radically improve your success rate. There are many other anglers on this forum that are more current with knowledge of available techniques, presentations and equipment.

For one, Digitrol is certainly equipped much better than I to provide this knowledge.

There are other great fishermen out there who don’t like to share in the open forum but can be contacted other ways. I’m hoping that this thread will provide an alternative to those who are not able to reach those people. Everybody please feel free to offer whatever knowledge you have to make us all better anglers
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jusgrinnin
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by jusgrinnin »

Great thread Jim, I for one only get to Champ 2 or 3 time a season and will share my results good or bad. In my case reporting what didn't work could save time for someone else.
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by TUnamas »

Many of us fish the Lake in different ways. Serenity Now is berthed at Pt. Bay, so my "home waters" are the Bridge to Willsboro, but each season most of my hours our spent between Wilsboro and Mile Point. Within that basin, I monitor currents and temps. When I'm on the water I use a relatively inexpensive graph to monitor bait. I always try to fish around bait, and though Serenity is large boat, you'll see me doing tight circles when it's graphed. I'm always mindful of winds and currents too, as winds and currents push bait. I agree with avoiding the "death troll" when moving, but sometimes trolling across the abyss is inevitable for a "short move" and quite sucessfull. The seiche is a whole other reality. It's a subsurface "wave" that can move temperatures substantially in short time at the same depths. No one can tell us how it done, or tell you where to head tomorrow. The lake changes all the time, and the best anglers who those who recognize that and adapt. A few years ago I wanted to reach out to Crazy Ivan to get his assessment of which spoons worked better, earlier and later in the season. I'm now convinced it doesn't matter, so long as the angler accounts for the 6 foot +/- lake change, current change and seasonal winds.
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by dry net »

With any body of water as large as Champ conditions change day to day much less week to week. We are only able to go once a week if conditions cooperate so to me our observations of where are already old news when they happen. Perhaps how might be a better discussion. There are several people on this site who do tell you how if you listen carefully. Thank you to all of them, Matt
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tamiron
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by tamiron »

TUnamas wrote: A few years ago I wanted to reach out to Crazy Ivan to get his assessment of which spoons worked better, earlier and later in the season. I'm now convinced it doesn't matter, so long as the angler accounts for the 6 foot +/- lake change, current change and seasonal winds.
I am not sure how CRAZY IVAN may have responded to this question but let me share my thoughts with you. I would first break down the spoon preferences to:
• color
• size
• speed tolerance
Then I would consider water conditions:
• clarity/turbidity/ light penetration- reduced clarity or increased turbidity tends to favor the higher colors on the visible and UV spectrum. Spring runoff conditions, excessive drought or precipitation will affect both clarity and turbidity throughout the year. Thus favoring one color over another. That isn’t to say that under most normal conditions spoons that you prefer will not produce much better anything else is the fruits of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
• time of the year and temperature can often affect the depth of the preferred forage base and again which colors are more visible than others at that depth. The size of the bait and its location in the water column will also be affected by the time of the year.
• Currents - wherever and whenever they occur will definitely impact speed tolerance of individual spoons. The problem with this is your presentation or program needs to be cognizant of utilizing the proper spoon choices to maximize “best” presentation methodology.

There are some great books out there that I have recommended before in this form some by Capt. Dan Keating that go into great detail about a lot of what was highlighted above. I strongly recommend that you check out his books and many others to expand on this subject. He will also provide very detailed “how to” instructions.
Last edited by tamiron on Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tamiron
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Re: Finding salmon

Post by tamiron »

dry net wrote: We are only able to go once a week if conditions cooperate so to me our observations of where are already old news when they happen. Perhaps how might be a better discussion. There are several people on this site who do tell you how if you listen carefully. Thank you to all of them, Matt
"How" is like eating the top of an Oreo cookie before you eat the rest!

In addition to the sources recommended in the prior reply, I would strongly urge all of you to check out YouTube for very specific video instructions to begin every "how" process. Asking specific questions should get you responses from some of the other excellent anglers that are available on this site. If you use the search feature on this forum you will find invaluable past responses to I'm sure some of the questions that are plaguing you now. Also there are different levels of experience for all new salmon trout anglers. At the very beginning, I would recommend that each of these early newbies consider investing in the most basic requirements to develop repetitive successes. Not in any specific order but perhaps by available funds.

I would consider a fishfinder that will identify bait, bottom depth, and whatever additional whistles and bells you can afford such as GPS and the ability to store as many waypoints as possible and incorporate the available navigation charts. WallyAndre,Digitrol, and many other's on this formum as well as people on YouTube have very specific recommendations with benefits and limitation analyses.

The next I would consider is something that will measure speed of the ball, temperature and relative depth of both of the above.

You can then add at least two downrigger's, some prefer three and some prefer four. If you asked the question you will get many anglers putting forth their preferences.

Navigational maps both electronic and paper will identify structures that will probably hold fish and some that you must absolutely avoid.

I hope by now everybody should be getting the idea that if it wasn't covered before we will at least try to put some thoughts every time somebody asks a question.

But now in good faith, the rest of you need to start sharing some of the things that you're doing, some of the things that you are using, some of the depths that you are fishing over, and some of the spoons that you are using. Remember do not disclose specific location that will irritate a lot of people. Even if you have a great buddy system tried to avoid making it look like you're doing hundred foot circles over super productive areas! No this is not being deceitful, it is being practical.

There are parts of Lake Champlain over extremely deep water located somewhere in the water column areas that are untouched. There are also many structures that have not been explored or properly penetrated. In upcoming threads, will try to address how to reduce the size of a lake in terms of presentation area to improve your chances and reduce wasted time and effort.
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