Salmon Future

[digitroll (ron)]

Thanks Andre.... Almost every visit out of Converse from August to December there was one trailer in the parking lot which was a reflection of the slow fishing for salmon. I cherry pick the nice days during the 5 day weekdays being retired and there was few of those in November to mid-December. Two future trips planned to Lake O in the spring and late summer.

[tmcaul]

This thread has had me staying up at night thinking about fishing for salmon. I have decided to just explore a little more and fish where I have not fished very much the last couple of years.

Last spring my son and I started out with a few salmon in Town Farm Bay - they were pushing 20" as I recall. But, for us, the days of catching a couple of salmon were about to end. June, July, and August were very slow - lakers only and I can't remember catching a single salmon. In mid-August I started using my "new" boat and was successful, for me, because I netted three salmon in the 3-5 lb category. Of course, I was fishing 3-4 times a week and I don't think I caught more than one additional smaller salmon.

I fished last year primarily in 45-120 FoW along the NY and VT shorelines from Essex and Converse south to Northwest Bay. On one calm day I motored down past Button Bay because my son and I caught/lost a couple of good fish in that area a few years back. Zilch on the day I tried it last September.

In the coming season I am going to experiment by fishing both shorelines north of the Essex to Charlotte ferry crossing. I have no illusions about this strategy being a huge game changer, but I think it's worth a try. I'm also going to try for walleyes in the area around and south of Sloop Island. For this I'll use the typical stickbaits and fish just before dusk.

Yes, I realize that my plans for 2020 fall largely into the "hope springs eternal" category. Hope others share their 2020 strategies.

[digitroll (ron)]

Good editorial and review Tom! Great plan for season 2020 too. We covered a lot of water and places and some of our friends as well last year areas on the NY side (A network from both sides of the lake I am lucky enough to be in contact with on Facebook and text). The up and down cycle of fishing landlocks is a challenge the last 40 years. Hope some of those 1,000 tagged record salmon from the hatchery brook trap (can be located) show up this upcoming season. On can only hope!

In the future it would be cool thing for transmitters to be put in mature salmon tagged at Hatchery brook might provide some insight of their movements and location to better understand them or what happens to them.

[Wallyandre (Andre)]

I have a few trips book for the next season out in my province , just in case.

[C-Hawk]

In a reply to Ron's post, we have studied the crap out of Lakers, Walleye, millions on sturgeon, high time we look at our money fish. This is an abberation as far I'm concerned, and we all need to pull our collective heads out of the sand and finally come to terms with the incredible ups and downs of our fishery .

[mhf (Matt)]

I've read articles for years stating that salmon that eat alewives die because of a substance in the alewife. Can't remember the name of the substance. Then the other day I read an article that claims the same thing about smelt. Can anyone substantiate this? The smelt thing I find hard to believe.

I'm a grad student at UVM and have some background studying the thiamine deficiency. There is a substance called "thiaminase" that is known to break down thiamine and is found naturally in alewife and smelt. There is a lot more thiaminase in alewife though, so feeding on a lot of alewife can cause the vitamin to decrease over time, eventually causing salmon and trout offspring to die. Eating smelt can cause thiamine to decrease too, but there are no documented cases of fish dying from thiamine deficiency by eating too many smelt. If you have any other questions about the deficiency, feel free to ask!

[TUnamas]

Thanks Matt! The value of this site in my own eyes went up several years ago when Ellen and others like you started participating in our workshops and we as forum members started to understand not just "fish reports" but what is happening in the lake. Your information is helpful. Thank you. If you are around in the Spring and looking for a "fishing day", I'd welcome you aboard Serenity after we launch. Stay in touch!

[mhf (Matt)]

You're welcome TUnamas! The benefits are mutual, there is a lot of great information in these forums and I'm happy to participate and provide any useful information I have. And thank you for that opportunity in the spring! I really appreciate it. I plan on sticking around for at least a few years so I'll definitely stay in touch.

[tmcaul]

@mhf - Matt

I think the primary forage fish of the trout and salmon in the Great Lakes has been the alewife. But has the fishing there been impacted by thiaminase? I know the alewife population is monitored by those states' F&W agencies and that is taken into account for stocking plans.

Thanks.

[bagman]

Our salmon eggs that are stripped from hatchery brook returns are treated with vitamin B1 at the hatchery to counteract the lower thiamine levels that will be caused by eating alewife. If not for the treatment the survival of salmon eggs in the hatchery would be relatively low. I believe great lakes fish are also treated.

[dry net]

I've read articles for years stating that salmon that eat alewives die because of a substance in the alewife. Can't remember the name of the substance. Then the other day I read an article that claims the same thing about smelt. Can anyone substantiate this? The smelt thing I find hard to believe.

I'm a grad student at UVM and have some background studying the thiamine deficiency. There is a substance called "thiaminase" that is known to break down thiamine and is found naturally in alewife and smelt. There is a lot more thiaminase in alewife though, so feeding on a lot of alewife can cause the vitamin to decrease over time, eventually causing salmon and trout offspring to die. Eating smelt can cause thiamine to decrease too, but there are no documented cases of fish dying from thiamine deficiency by eating too many smelt. If you have any other questions about the deficiency, feel free to ask!

Thank you for the insight, Matt

[mhf (Matt)]

@tmcaul

Bagman is correct in that Great Lakes fish affected by the deficiency are treated. The lakes that have alewife as a major prey see thiamine deficiency, mainly as limiting offspring survival. The deficiency can impact adults too, but it is pretty rare. To account for the limited survival, hatcheries treat eggs with thiamine to keep them alive and use those thiamine treated offspring for stocking.
So I can think of two big reasons why alewife populations get accounted for when planning stocking:
1) food web balance: alewife are a major part of the food web so if their numbers start to drop, agencies may want to adjust the number of fish stocked to avoid having too many predators without enough prey.
2) survival of wild offspring: as long as alewife are a main prey item, thiamine deficiency may limit survival of wild offspring, creating a need for stocked fish. But if the alewife population dies out and other prey remain available, wild offspring may survive (happened in Lake Huron). It gets tricky though because other factors might be impacting survival too

[dry net]

So, with alewife being the major food for lake trout in Champ can we say that natural reproduction is limited?

[C-Hawk]

Ok, nice topic about thiamine. We know this already, went through some great years with B1 application. Someone tell me what it is now?

[tamiron]

mhf (Matt)

The increase in natural reproduction and successful growth of Lake Trout after the "discovery" of Alewives would appear to indicate that the impact by Alewives on Lake Trout and Atlantics is going in opposite directions!

In many lakes on the West Coast, Lake trout are the Apex predator that prefer Kokanee Salmon and grow in almost grotesque size because of the oil rich salmon. Can that be having an affect on the Salmon population in Champlain? More Lakers eating juvenile Atlantics?

This frostbite season I don't hear about the birds. Is surface frenzy gone? Are there Gobies in Champlain yet? In the past year we heard about Atlantics eating perch (Inland Sea), silver bass, etc. Do we know what their preferred forage is? If it is smelt or alewives, is there a size preference?
If there is a size preference, could that change their preferred location in the Water column?