Salmon Future

[Reelax]

mhf (Matt)

The increase in natural reproduction and successful growth of Lake Trout after the "discovery" of Alewives would appear to indicate that the impact by Alewives on Lake Trout and Atlantics is going in opposite directions!

In many lakes on the West Coast, Lake trout are the Apex predator that prefer Kokanee Salmon and grow in almost grotesque size because of the oil rich salmon. Can that be having an affect on the Salmon population in Champlain? More Lakers eating juvenile Atlantics?

This frostbite season I don't hear about the birds. Is surface frenzy gone? Are there Gobies in Champlain yet? In the past year we heard about Atlantics eating perch (Inland Sea), silver bass, etc. Do we know what their preferred forage is? If it is smelt or alewives, is there a size preference?
If there is a size preference, could that change their preferred location in the Water column?

Glad to hear from you Jim!!!!

Will try to provide some feedback;

I haven’t seen many birds working bait on surface at all... and I have been looking hard.no bird tornadoes yet... but I’ll keep looking, cause they are like striking gold. I have only seen them between November and March... so they are overdue... Gobies are not here yet as far as I know.

Do you really think a laker would eat a juvenile salmon...???? I’m not sure it would catch one... if that is the case that is a game changer... maybe that is where our age classes went a couple years ago???

Things that make ya go hmmmmmmm

Thanks for chiming in...

[dry net]

Can anyone say if Vermont or New York trawls for a baitfish survey on Champ?

[Gecha (Gerry)]

Thanks a lot Matt for your input.

[mhf (Matt)]

mhf (Matt)

The increase in natural reproduction and successful growth of Lake Trout after the "discovery" of Alewives would appear to indicate that the impact by Alewives on Lake Trout and Atlantics is going in opposite directions!

In many lakes on the West Coast, Lake trout are the Apex predator that prefer Kokanee Salmon and grow in almost grotesque size because of the oil rich salmon. Can that be having an affect on the Salmon population in Champlain? More Lakers eating juvenile Atlantics?

This frostbite season I don't hear about the birds. Is surface frenzy gone? Are there Gobies in Champlain yet? In the past year we heard about Atlantics eating perch (Inland Sea), silver bass, etc. Do we know what their preferred forage is? If it is smelt or alewives, is there a size preference?
If there is a size preference, could that change their preferred location in the Water column?

The impacts of thiamine deficiency are dependent on diet so if one species is eating alewife more heavily than the other, the impacts will be different. But there have been observations of wild offspring surviving for both Atlantics and lakers in recent years (not as many observations for the Atlantics, but still a great sign). Unfortunately, I don't know much about the diet of adult lakers or Atlantics, but I am planning to look into the year-round diet of wild and stocked adult lakers for my research through UVM. It sounds like Atlantics have a pretty diverse diet based on comments from this forum so that could be a good sign for their thiamine levels (you wont find any gobies in their stomachs though because they are not in Champlain). If Atlantics do have a preferred forage and/or a size preference, it is possible that they may have a preferred location in the water column, but I don't know much about the distribution of prey throughout the water column based on their size.

As for lakers eating Atlantics, I don't expect that to be impacting the Atlantic population here in Lake Champlain. I suppose a laker may occasionally bump into a smaller Atlantic, but I'd imagine that would be pretty rare compared to all of the bait fish that are much more available for the lakers. Plus, Atlantics grow reatlive quickly compared to the bait fish, so after a year in the lake the Atlantics would likely be too large to be eaten by any laker.

@dry net
As far as a survey of the bait fish, others in the lab I work in are starting a project to make a bait fish survey for Lake Champlain. The project will use successful surveys from other systems as models to create a bait fish survey for Lake Champlain. If I am correct, UVM will run that survey in the future.

[dry net]

mhf (Matt)

The increase in natural reproduction and successful growth of Lake Trout after the "discovery" of Alewives would appear to indicate that the impact by Alewives on Lake Trout and Atlantics is going in opposite directions!

In many lakes on the West Coast, Lake trout are the Apex predator that prefer Kokanee Salmon and grow in almost grotesque size because of the oil rich salmon. Can that be having an affect on the Salmon population in Champlain? More Lakers eating juvenile Atlantics?

This frostbite season I don't hear about the birds. Is surface frenzy gone? Are there Gobies in Champlain yet? In the past year we heard about Atlantics eating perch (Inland Sea), silver bass, etc. Do we know what their preferred forage is? If it is smelt or alewives, is there a size preference?
If there is a size preference, could that change their preferred location in the Water column?

The impacts of thiamine deficiency are dependent on diet so if one species is eating alewife more heavily than the other, the impacts will be different. But there have been observations of wild offspring surviving for both Atlantics and lakers in recent years (not as many observations for the Atlantics, but still a great sign). Unfortunately, I don't know much about the diet of adult lakers or Atlantics, but I am planning to look into the year-round diet of wild and stocked adult lakers for my research through UVM. It sounds like Atlantics have a pretty diverse diet based on comments from this forum so that could be a good sign for their thiamine levels (you wont find any gobies in their stomachs though because they are not in Champlain). If Atlantics do have a preferred forage and/or a size preference, it is possible that they may have a preferred location in the water column, but I don't know much about the distribution of prey throughout the water column based on their size.

As for lakers eating Atlantics, I don't expect that to be impacting the Atlantic population here in Lake Champlain. I suppose a laker may occasionally bump into a smaller Atlantic, but I'd imagine that would be pretty rare compared to all of the bait fish that are much more available for the lakers. Plus, Atlantics grow reatlive quickly compared to the bait fish, so after a year in the lake the Atlantics would likely be too large to be eaten by any laker.

@dry net
As far as a survey of the bait fish, others in the lab I work in are starting a project to make a bait fish survey for Lake Champlain. The project will use successful surveys from other systems as models to create a bait fish survey for Lake Champlain. If I am correct, UVM will run that survey in the future.

Thank you for your response , Matt

[tamiron]

Matt:
Thank you for your responses. The forum needs more like this from you and your colleagues. As for must of us, urban legend is sometimes the only "bible" we can reference. Here is one article that may link Lake trout to juvenile Atlantics as the Atlantic grow slower than Kokanee that have only a 2 or 3 year average life cycle.

http://www.garylewisoutdoors.com/huntin ... ee-fishing

"Many of the lakes that contain the biggest populations of kokanee also have a few big-bellied predators that keep them in check. That should be enough to electrify most fishermen. When you want to catch a trophy, troll deep and ring the dinner bell for a big mack (Lake Trout). When you need to stock up on tasty meat, target kokanee."

Another article that points to Lake Trout eating Landlocked Kings and kokanee:
http://www.northwestfishingreports.com/ ... etails/653

Also, New York State Fingerlakes Anglers have long targeted Lake Trout as being heavy nocturnal feeders when other trout and salmon "rest/sleep" close to the bottom. I would love to have a dollar for every angler that has caught lake trout that had juvenile 8-10 inch browns and rainbows in their stomachs in Canadice, Hemlock and Cayuga finger lakes..

Under Google: Lake Chelan Lake Trout (images)
https://www.google.com/search?newwindow ... 9386483258

[C-Hawk]

I too think there can be be a predation problem on juvenile, salmon, browns and steelhead. And why not? I have caught mid size Lakers with 7-10 inch smelt in them. Also huge alewives. But the bigger problem is, huge stocking numbers of fish that easily live 20 years and are regarded as only so so at best table fare. I think going forward, huge numbers of Lakers, are way too competitive for smaller supplies of baitfish. Then throw in big alewife die offs every couple of years, and things are perpetually out of balance. No one calculated the more aggressive nature of Lakers after little or no Lamprey wounding. Plus, I'm thinking the huge number of fish, may be more than a dwindling number of lamprey can attack.
In other words, use our resources to grow more salmon and less Mud Hens.

[tamiron]

.... easily live 20 years and are regarded as only so so at best table fare.....

C-Hawk:

First I think that 20 years can be an understatement without Lamprey and human predation. Also, they spawn often in their long lives and will feed on almost anything including frozen bait and fresh dead fish on the bottom.

The Lamprey need to go in any case.

There are people, including myself, that enjoy eating Lakers. Using this forum, we may be able to get anglers to participate in a Best Lake Trout Recipe in some type of contest. This could go a long ways to increasing predation by man. I am absolutely convinced that there are recipes out there that could make Lake Trout a delicacy, including smoking, grilling, etc. Charter Boat Captains should jump at this opportunity to give their customers more reasons to harvest the lakers.

My mother would use pieces of bread to soak up the oil when baking lakers (and then throw the bread away). I soak Boneless skinless fillets in water, salt and brown sugar over night, before draining and grilling in a foil pouch with Old Bay seasoning, sliced onions and lemon pepper.

[C-Hawk]

I think smoking them are good Jim, most can not tell them from salmon. People eat them at our campground, and cook them slow, whole, over a low smokey campfire. However, only takes a few and the novelty is worn off. But you're right, they are underutilized.

[dry net]

I think smoking them are good Jim, most can not tell them from salmon. People eat them at our campground, and cook them slow, whole, over a low smokey campfire. However, only takes a few and the novelty is worn off. But you're right, they are underutilized.

There were alot of members from this forum blasting charter captains for keeping a charter limit of lakers every day they fished. Which is it? Killing to many or not killing enough? Perhaps the answer lies in the individual. Without knowing the bait fish mass who's to say?

[C-Hawk]

I never have blasted anyone for keeping a legal limit. In fact encourage it. What you may remember seeing are people complaining about poor fish handling techniques, while jigging up 60 Lakers a day.

[tamiron]

dry net
Keeping a legal limit is never an issue! Just the opposite.

But harvesting even a legal limit without using them for consumption is questionable.

Improper handling is an issue for any catch and release.

[tamiron]

Surprise:

Don't you have any good recipes for Lakers?

[C-Hawk]

Find a nice cedar board. Put the Laker on the board with plenty of basil. Cook in oven for two hours at 325. Remove from oven, scrape the Laker off, and eat the board.

[ATLSALMON]

That is what all us Charter Captains here in the Finger Lakes say check the Lake Ontario unitied board for some very good Laker recipes