ACTION PLAN

[Captain Paul]

I guess I am being miss-understood as I input, continue to learn and understand.
To C-Hawk response I do use my Fishhawk TD on a regular basis. All of the salmon I have caught been no deeper than 50' in approximately 50 degree water. Have noted they will travel outside their preferred water temp to feed. In regards to thermocline I just considering the possibility that maybe some of the yearling population is deep, due to water temperature being 60 degrees down to 80'. In previous years I could find 45-53 degree water at 30-40 feet.
To Captain Paul, I joined and learn from the site out of respect to the experienced members. I believe input is important and if it triggers precision and learning more, all the better.

Xcalibur it has been my experience that the smaller Salmon 8 to 18 inches tend to hold in a little bit warmer water than the big Salmon. Its not unusual to catch the little guys in 60 to 65 degree water.

[tamiron]

At the risk of being totally misunderstood, I would like to encourage the redirection all of these topics back to one … an ACTION PLAN. We, the forum members, are wasting too much time and effort on not properly defining or framing the problem and pursuing corrections.

Ellen Marsden has basically indicated that the Lake Trout fishery is in very good shape especially with the great news of natural reproduction. It would seem at this time the lake trout do not need to be part of the action plan other than to be sure to monitor ongoing stocking levels and the forage base which Ellen is already doing.

Almost conspicuous by its absence, is the silence of the conservation people who are also members of this forum and have participated with us in the past.

Unranked priorities ( + more?)

 1.Cormorants … Way too many of them. How do we reduce their current levels? What would be an ideal level that could make the judge feel comfortable with his decision? Can a zero population growth be maintained once an acceptable level has been reached?…. A thread needs ownership …. (Capt. Paul?)
 2.Current information on spawning returns … A thread needs ownership.(Popster?) What other measurements of population status can be measured by the Econ people?
 3.Most current information on year class levels of both Atlantics and forage bases … A thread needs ownership (volunteer?).
 4.Liaison on the current needs of the VT fish and game … A thread needs ownership (volunteer?).
 5.Liaison on current needs of the New York environmental conservation Department… A thread needs ownership (volunteer?).
 6.Launch facility maintenance and expansion requirements… A thread needs ownership (volunteer?).
 7.An angler’s organizationA thread needs ownership (volunteers?).

o That can provide manpower needed by the conservation departments such as dispersing stockings.
o That can prioritize current needs of anglers and provide a singular voice to government administrations.
o That can provide instructional support to new anglers during the fishing season perhaps in conjunction with one of the many tournaments on the Lake.
o That could support a forum thread that would provide for guest commentators to report on new tackle advances, shared experiences of other bodies of water, anything which could improve the overall knowledge and learning curve of all Champlain anglers

[BottomDollar]

An addition: public perception of Lake Champlain.

How many of you have spoken to locals who don't fish or boat on the lake and are incredulous that you would eat ANY fish taken from Champlain? For me, it's most of those folks I talk to about fishing here who have a negative reaction. And it's easy to see why. The only media coverage the lake gets is of beach closings and bad water quality due to algae blooms and sewage contamination.

We all know that the lake is pretty clean once you're offshore, and that it's got plenty of volume to dilute point source pollution. But most people do not see this or know this, so they think it's just a big cesspool. So they really couldn't care less about species restoration or stocking levels or lamprey or cormorants. They know they're not catching and eating these fish, so they don't care.

What we can do: pressure our local government to pass measures to keep phosphorus and sewage/runoff out of the lake. Burlington, Vergennes, and Montpelier all have terrible wastewater systems for storm runoff. The systems are hundreds of years old...pre-industrial and totally ineffective. The dairy industry in VT is another culprit. Manure spreading practices need to be made more effective and contained. This is where most of the phosphorus is coming from, and that's why we have algae blooms. Has anyone seen Lake Carmi?

Unfortunately, the federal government isn't going to do jack shit for at least the next 3+ years (or 2018 midterms, maybe), so this all has to come from VT and upstate NY. The EPA is actively challenging the federal Clean Water Rule under Pruitt. This rule has a direct connection to Champlain, as it is intended to protect the quality of our drinking water (much of which is right from the lake). I hate to get political but that's where we're at.

It's disheartening to me to see people claiming "fake news" about a really positive story in the Boston Globe about our lake trout population. That's good! We want good press! Or dismissing scientific data about the cormorants. We need more data, we need more studies! We need to know what's actually happening other than anecdotal reports of a couple of people witnessing something. I'm totally guilty of bashing the birds, but the truth is I just don't really know. I have a feeling that that's what's happening, but instead of bitching about it here I should be calling VT F&W to see what data they have or can get to effectively target the problem. The judge in that case made that decision based on the facts we have, so we need more data and facts to get a different ruling if that's the problem.

If people see that we have something worth protecting, they'll care a lot more about seeing native fish species and habitats restored. We have an incredible, beautiful resource here and I believe the only way to make it even better is to make more people see that potential, to see the problems and how to address them, and to direct resources to where they'll do the most good.

Sorry for the long rant, and I'm not trying to call anyone out or offend anybody, just being straight with my opinions.

[fishfarmer]

An addition: public perception of Lake Champlain.

How many of you have spoken to locals who don't fish or boat on the lake and are incredulous that you would eat ANY fish taken from Champlain? For me, it's most of those folks I talk to about fishing here who have a negative reaction. And it's easy to see why. The only media coverage the lake gets is of beach closings and bad water quality due to algae blooms and sewage contamination.

We all know that the lake is pretty clean once you're offshore, and that it's got plenty of volume to dilute point source pollution. But most people do not see this or know this, so they think it's just a big cesspool. So they really couldn't care less about species restoration or stocking levels or lamprey or cormorants. They know they're not catching and eating these fish, so they don't care.

What we can do: pressure our local government to pass measures to keep phosphorus and sewage/runoff out of the lake. Burlington, Vergennes, and Montpelier all have terrible wastewater systems for storm runoff. The systems are hundreds of years old...pre-industrial and totally ineffective. The dairy industry in VT is another culprit. Manure spreading practices need to be made more effective and contained. This is where most of the phosphorus is coming from, and that's why we have algae blooms. Has anyone seen Lake Carmi?

Unfortunately, the federal government isn't going to do jack shit for at least the next 3+ years (or 2018 midterms, maybe), so this all has to come from VT and upstate NY. The EPA is actively challenging the federal Clean Water Rule under Pruitt. This rule has a direct connection to Champlain, as it is intended to protect the quality of our drinking water (much of which is right from the lake). I hate to get political but that's where we're at.

It's disheartening to me to see people claiming "fake news" about a really positive story in the Boston Globe about our lake trout population. That's good! We want good press! Or dismissing scientific data about the cormorants. We need more data, we need more studies! We need to know what's actually happening other than anecdotal reports of a couple of people witnessing something. I'm totally guilty of bashing the birds, but the truth is I just don't really know. I have a feeling that that's what's happening, but instead of bitching about it here I should be calling VT F&W to see what data they have or can get to effectively target the problem. The judge in that case made that decision based on the facts we have, so we need more data and facts to get a different ruling if that's the problem.

If people see that we have something worth protecting, they'll care a lot more about seeing native fish species and habitats restored. We have an incredible, beautiful resource here and I believe the only way to make it even better is to make more people see that potential, to see the problems and how to address them, and to direct resources to where they'll do the most good.

Sorry for the long rant, and I'm not trying to call anyone out or offend anybody, just being straight with my opinions.

You hit the nail on the head! Beautifully summarized! Public perception is key.

I was manning the stocking truck at Dead Creek Day this past weekend and I was subjected to many questions and it always amazes me how little the general public know about fisheries in the state. For instance, I met individuals who live on Lewis Creek near Route 7, they notice the hordes of anglers fishing in May, they assume they are fishing steelhead, I informed them by that time of year there is a smallmouth bass spawning run. Another couple from the Lincoln area didn't even know there were salmon in the lake. Another fellow was interested on how much the fish in Vermont are tested for mercury since when he lived in NYC he had seen a thick report years ago of every New York water body being tested for mercury.

[C-Hawk]

You are right Andy. I tried to get political here 2 years ago and no one wanted the debate on a fishing forum. When the money runs out , and the Lake is polluted from removal of environmental restrictions that will only help big business, and the cormorants eat all our fish, and the tourists go somewhere else, and the lamprey start thriving again, will that be the time we start to talk politics? With the current administration, you can't have it both ways, and I believe they haven't even got started yet. Every single agency will see drastic cuts. We as a forum must speak out politicly for the things we want to see happen for our Lake. If you think the new administration will help with cormorant control, ask for help. Certainly he is no fan of the 9th circuit. We can not just bury our heads in the sand and only discuss fishing.

[Captain Paul]

An addition: public perception of Lake Champlain.

How many of you have spoken to locals who don't fish or boat on the lake and are incredulous that you would eat ANY fish taken from Champlain? For me, it's most of those folks I talk to about fishing here who have a negative reaction. And it's easy to see why. The only media coverage the lake gets is of beach closings and bad water quality due to algae blooms and sewage contamination.

We all know that the lake is pretty clean once you're offshore, and that it's got plenty of volume to dilute point source pollution. But most people do not see this or know this, so they think it's just a big cesspool. So they really couldn't care less about species restoration or stocking levels or lamprey or cormorants. They know they're not catching and eating these fish, so they don't care.

What we can do: pressure our local government to pass measures to keep phosphorus and sewage/runoff out of the lake. Burlington, Vergennes, and Montpelier all have terrible wastewater systems for storm runoff. The systems are hundreds of years old...pre-industrial and totally ineffective. The dairy industry in VT is another culprit. Manure spreading practices need to be made more effective and contained. This is where most of the phosphorus is coming from, and that's why we have algae blooms. Has anyone seen Lake Carmi?

Unfortunately, the federal government isn't going to do jack shit for at least the next 3+ years (or 2018 midterms, maybe), so this all has to come from VT and upstate NY. The EPA is actively challenging the federal Clean Water Rule under Pruitt. This rule has a direct connection to Champlain, as it is intended to protect the quality of our drinking water (much of which is right from the lake). I hate to get political but that's where we're at.

It's disheartening to me to see people claiming "fake news" about a really positive story in the Boston Globe about our lake trout population. That's good! We want good press! Or dismissing scientific data about the cormorants. We need more data, we need more studies! We need to know what's actually happening other than anecdotal reports of a couple of people witnessing something. I'm totally guilty of bashing the birds, but the truth is I just don't really know. I have a feeling that that's what's happening, but instead of bitching about it here I should be calling VT F&W to see what data they have or can get to effectively target the problem. The judge in that case made that decision based on the facts we have, so we need more data and facts to get a different ruling if that's the problem.

If people see that we have something worth protecting, they'll care a lot more about seeing native fish species and habitats restored. We have an incredible, beautiful resource here and I believe the only way to make it even better is to make more people see that potential, to see the problems and how to address them, and to direct resources to where they'll do the most good.

Sorry for the long rant, and I'm not trying to call anyone out or offend anybody, just being straight with my opinions.

You hit the nail on the head! Beautifully summarized! Public perception is key.

I was manning the stocking truck at Dead Creek Day this past weekend and I was subjected to many questions and it always amazes me how little the general public know about fisheries in the state. For instance, I met individuals who live on Lewis Creek near Route 7, they notice the hordes of anglers fishing in May, they assume they are fishing steelhead, I informed them by that time of year there is a smallmouth bass spawning run. Another couple from the Lincoln area didn't even know there were salmon in the lake. Another fellow was interested on how much the fish in Vermont are tested for mercury since when he lived in NYC he had seen a thick report years ago of every New York water body being tested for mercury.

Very well said with a couple of exceptions. I believe that Double Crest Cormorants have been studied pretty extensively through out the Country and there was a very big study done on Young Island that spanned many years. When it come to Cormorants there is no more time for studying them we need action because at this point there population is almost doubling every year.

Doing Charters one Lake Champlain full time I meet a lot of people from all over the World. Most of which are shocked and not pleased to see the devastation done by Cormorants to Four Brothers Islands. They always ask why is nothing being done and I have to explain to them because Cormorants do not live in DC just much lower forms of life live there.

[Captain Paul]

At the risk of being totally misunderstood, I would like to encourage the redirection all of these topics back to one … an ACTION PLAN. We, the forum members, are wasting too much time and effort on not properly defining or framing the problem and pursuing corrections.

Ellen Marsden has basically indicated that the Lake Trout fishery is in very good shape especially with the great news of natural reproduction. It would seem at this time the lake trout do not need to be part of the action plan other than to be sure to monitor ongoing stocking levels and the forage base which Ellen is already doing.

Almost conspicuous by its absence, is the silence of the conservation people who are also members of this forum and have participated with us in the past.

Unranked priorities ( + more?)

 1.Cormorants … Way too many of them. How do we reduce their current levels? What would be an ideal level that could make the judge feel comfortable with his decision? Can a zero population growth be maintained once an acceptable level has been reached?…. A thread needs ownership …. (Capt. Paul?)
 2.Current information on spawning returns … A thread needs ownership.(Popster?) What other measurements of population status can be measured by the Econ people?
 3.Most current information on year class levels of both Atlantics and forage bases … A thread needs ownership (volunteer?).
 4.Liaison on the current needs of the VT fish and game … A thread needs ownership (volunteer?).
 5.Liaison on current needs of the New York environmental conservation Department… A thread needs ownership (volunteer?).
 6.Launch facility maintenance and expansion requirements… A thread needs ownership (volunteer?).
 7.An angler’s organizationA thread needs ownership (volunteers?).

o That can provide manpower needed by the conservation departments such as dispersing stockings.
o That can prioritize current needs of anglers and provide a singular voice to government administrations.
o That can provide instructional support to new anglers during the fishing season perhaps in conjunction with one of the many tournaments on the Lake.
o That could support a forum thread that would provide for guest commentators to report on new tackle advances, shared experiences of other bodies of water, anything which could improve the overall knowledge and learning curve of all Champlain anglers

Jim you have great Idea's here but when it come to Cormorants I have spent a lot of time trying to get people to pull together to get something done and have reached a conclusion the only way the problem will be cured is if we take care of them ourselves. It is said to say that but our voices have been falling on death ears for way to long. The Cormorant issue is not just a Lake Champlain issue it is the entire Country they have devastated Fishery's through out the Country and still nothing gets done. We had a Lobbyist on the boat a couple of years ago from DC and his specialized in environmental issues and thought that he could get his firm to do some work on Cormorants and they did. He spent several months on the issue and got no where.
I believe that until we can bring Fishermen and Fish Farmers and people that believe in protecting our Native Habitat together from the whole Country and Canada as one group we will get nothing more than a band aid for the problem.

[ChessieMan]

OK, I'll stick my 2 cents in here.

First regarding this forum, I've been fishing LC for the past 5 years - Oct-Jan only - the first 3 years, in retrospect, were disastrous. Then I found this website and with the info on here and some great advice from Fishy, Jimbow and Jim (Tamiron) the last 2 years have been phenomenal for me. I am an admitted "digital dinosaur", I don't have a smart phone, I don't know how to Twitter or tweet and honestly, I don't pay attention to those who do, this is where I get my info on LC.

As some others have, I try to make available all the pertinent info I can, especially when I have a good day, down to pic's of lures and screen shots w/lat & long #'s. Sharing info within a community as small as ours will not hurt the fishing, not abiding by regulations, using poor judgement and not acting in unity are much bigger threats.

I personally participate in the DEC Region 5 Co-operative Angler program and would be willing to act as a liaison with them if a need exists - and I believe it one does. I would like to see their data summarized and published annually as does Region 4 for Hudson River Stripers.

As a retired Chemical Eng. I am data driven and have a working spread sheet (along with the DEC book) - here's what I have for the last 2 years for LL Salmon - interpret as you may.

2015 - Total LLS - 105, #trips - 22, Ave # LLS/trip - 4.8, Ave length - 15.97"

2016 - Total LLS - 89, #/trips - 16, Ave # LLS/trip - 5.6, Ave length - 14.98

There is not much statistical difference, but more years may prove different.

I'm not sure if any of this makes sense or a difference, but I see great value in this website and the anglers who post on it. We should use it in a constructive manner, acting as a group, having agreed to Goals and responsibilities as laid out by Tamiron. One hand clapping makes no noise, but several voices in unison will be heard.

There is always room for debate that is focused on achieving a goal - and I'm hoping that goal is better fishing.

[jimbow]

Well said ChessieMan, I am glad to hear that some of my advise has helped you in your fishing endeavors and thanks for sharing...That is just one aspect of what this form this is all about....sharing AND helping our fishery on the lake is the main stay. And you are right, as a organization we will be heard much louder than an individual. BOTH N.Y and Vermont need to co-operate in achieving a better fishery, that goes for Fish & Wildlife (DEC) AND the residents (members). It shouldn't be dumped on one state or the other but since we share the lake both states need to get their act together. It is up to the individual members as to how much info they want to share regarding their time on the water but sharing basics shouldn't endanger anyone's fishing on the lake. But we ALL need to unite when there is a threat to the fishery in general, and take it to the State(s)/Feds for a solution as a united organization.