Catching Live Bait?

[karl]

Our rules in NYS specify that (uncertified) live bait be caught from same lake as it will be used in, and if bought from a dealer, will require a receipt specifying source. I want to start trapping, but want to stay legal.

Live bait here may be called minnows, shiners, and about a dozen different other names.

When a bait fish is under 2" long, is it even possible to determine its species? Could it be fry from almost any species, for example? I suspect lots of what are sold as "minnows" are actually alewife fry. We are allowed to catch our own bait, generally with a trap or net as sabiki rigs are prohibited I believe due to exceeding the number of hooks legally able to be put in the water at the same time (NYS).

I'm new to fishing in general, so this may be a pretty naive question, and may only relate to those on Champlain, and may differ from NY to VT sides, too. I have read the DEC publication, which left me even more confused:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_ ... shofny.pdf

[fishingmachine]

if you ever figure it out,we would all like to know

[dickbaker]

Rules in Vt. are even more complicated.
Dick

[tree-on]

Sabiki rigs are out unless you cut them down to 2 hooks in Champlain. From the guide: Any person who has a fishing license or is entitled to fish without a license may collect minnows (except carp and goldfish), killifish, mudminnows, darters, sticklebacks, stonecats, smelt, alewives and suckers for personal use in hook and line fishing only (sale prohibited) by angling and with the gear types listed below. All other species must be immediately returned to the water.
The lake Champlain special regs prohibit taking smelt by trap or net. so they are out unless you catch them by angling. You will have to know how to identify the fish you catch. alewives are ok if you catch them in Champlain.
If you have questions, call the DEC office and ask. They are very helpful on regulation questions. http://www.dec.ny.gov/about/631.html

[karl]

Even with the pictures in the NYS DEC publication, I'm not real confident of being accurate in my identification.

Interestly, you can get a bait-only fishing license...price varies with catch method and net size, but was $2-$10.

I assume most live bait sellers around Champlain are selling "uncertified bait, meaning they have not been lab tested for certain diseases...I would think testing would increase price by at least 10x, unless it's a simple dip-strip or something the dealer does himself. If uncertified, can only be used on same body of water (or in some cases, connecting bodies). where the bait was caught, and dealers have to provide a receipt showing origin which you have to have in your possession while fishing.

There was also mention of selling live insects for bait (???) Grasshoppers?

As to alewives, the permitted lakes listed in the DEC publication do not list Champlain.

Now, add the complexities of crossing the NYS/VT and Quebec borders with live bait must really require having a lawyer on board at all times.

Edit: I just quickly reviewed the VT bait-fish regs, and if live bait is purchased on the NYS side, the dealer must also be VT licensed and provide that on the receipt, and it only applies to Champlain...NYS-sold bait can only be used in VT on Champlain and no other waters. VT is still offering a live-bait identification guide for free, but admit that the regulations cited in the guide are obsolete...nice. "But officer, it says right here that...."

[dickbaker]

While staying on Keeler Bay we used to store a few dozen of Dockside shiners in a mesh basket beside the dock. We often fly fish for big golden and red fin shiners at a Champlain back water and store them in the live well for late pike and bass fishing. We had more than we needed after one evening and decided to move them from live well, across the dock to basket. BUT a biologist friend of the camp owner
warned us that we were probably breaking the when we moved the shiners across the dock????
Dick

[lingcod]

Vermont trapping/catching of baitfish is explained pretty well (IMO) on pgs. 54-55 of the regs. manual. Personally-harvested baitfish may only be used " on the same waterbody from which they were collected" (p.54) and "may not be transported alive from waters where caught" (p. 55). Sixteen baitfish are listed that can be netted/trapped, and five more ( panfish) , plus alewives, which can only be taken by angling. Lake Champlain appears to be well within the definition of "waterbody" & "waters".
The baitfish list is a long one. I have googled each specie and printed the pics in color, which I carry with me while collecting bait. Saves confusion for me and for any F&W officer.

[karl]

A cop shouldn't also have to be a PhD in marine biology...some closely-related species actually cross-breed with hybrid offspring, and I have yet to see these mentioned...on Champlain, it happens in the pike-pickerel family and I believe with some salmonids (salmon/trout), requiring DNA testing to determine what it is. If an enforcement officer can't even ID the fry of these fish, how can a fisherman? Since burden of proof is on them, I'd demand a jury trial and demand DNA test results, the cost of which would greatly exceed any possible fine..."case dismissed".

The whole system is flawed and hard to enforce...uncertified bait bought from a dealer only requires you to throw out the receipt and claim the bait-was self-caught, for example.

Or, just stick with lures and rubber worms, the latter often kill gamefish who swallow the entire thing, which accumulate in their stomachs.

And back to live insects, what's being sold by bait dealers?

[dickbaker]

You might be able to trap Champlain baitfish, BUT you can't put them in a vehicle and drive to another portion of Champlain
Dick

[C-Hawk]

I was once told by a Vermont warden, that you pretty much needed to be able to point to your minnow trap. You better have one in the water if you are using non certified bait and be prepared to take the warden to it.

[karl]

So, if I'm a waterfront owner on the NYS side, a VT warden is going to follow me 50 miles home, going outside his legal jurisdiction, so I can show him my minnow trap, which at the time just happens to be sitting on the dock as I have already caught enough bait for 3 days, and my cat has had several full meals of the same bait? I don't think NYS/VT officers can even cross the state line unless in active pursuit of an offender.

Like when I was a NYS parole investigator, I couldn't cross into another state, why I was cross-sworn as a dep. US marshal, then I could. Plus the feds would pay me unlimited overtime when NYS was denying it.

[dickbaker]

Karl? No reason for a Vt. warden to follow you home. You have already broken the law by transporting uncertified shiners from NY to Vt.?
Dick

[karl]

I don't think that is illegal...the fish themselves cross the border on their own, so what would be the point?

NYS, in general, allows live bait to be used in connecting tributaries, as long as it has not been transported over land.

Even if illegal, simple enough to just keep a small minnow trap on the boat, thus it would be impossible to determine origin.